Guests on this program were:
Lisa Gay Hamilton
Michael McKean
Darlene Kennedy
Karri Turner
Bill's Opening
Bill: Thank you very much. Oh, wow. I tell you, this presidential race just gets more interesting by the day. Doesn't it? It just seesaws back and forth, and I tell you yesterday -- now, John McCain, who lost in Virginia, not by as much as Bush claimed, only nine points, and now -- here's what's new between these two guys. Today, McCain called Bush to congratulate Bush on his victory, and during the conversation, McCain said, "I think I have a bad connection," and Bush said, "Try my guy. His stuff is primo."
[ Cheers and applause ]
I kid -- well, no, I kid George Bush about his drug past but, you know, now that he is back ahead in the delegate count, I think it came out the other day, because he said, "Boy, it's good to be out from behind the three and a half grams -- I mean the eight ball."
[ Applause ]
Well, over on the Democratic side, Gore and Bradley tonight have their debate here in California. Wow! It was on CNN. It was on C-SPAN and it was on Fox under the title, "Who Wants To Marry A Monotone."
[ Laughter ]
I tell you, Gore really knows how to play Los Angeles. You know, he knew exactly how to get the L.A. crowd, and just show them that he is more powerful than Bradley because during the debate, his cell phone rang, and he went, "I got to take this."
[ Applause ]
Panel Discussion
Bill: All right. Let's meet our panelists. She's a conservative policy analyst and law professor at Virginia's regent university. Darlene Kennedy. Darlene!
[ Applause ]
Hey, you. Whoa! Thank you very much. She's one of the fine stars of "J.A.G." Tuesdays at 8:00 on another channel, Karri Turner. Karri.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Karri: Hi.
Bill: Thank you. He's an actor/comedian and one of our favorite guests. His new movie, "Little Nicky" opens this fall. Michael McKean right over here.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Michael: Hey, Bill.
Bill: And one of the 12 stars of "The Practice" Sundays at 10:00, right here on ABC, Lisa Gay Hamilton.
[ Applause ]
Lisa: Hi. How are you?
Bill: That's right. I get a kiss from all the girls.
[ Applause ] Okay. Let's talk a little bit about my favorite subject, George Bush. Now that he might be President again.
[ Laughter ]
Now, the whole point of George Bush when he first started, was that he was a moderate, but then when he got his high-priced ass kicked in New Hampshire, he made a run to the right in South Carolina that would make Mussolini's March look like Earth Day. So as you all know, he got in trouble for speaking at Bob Jones University. And if you go to a school named Bob --
[ Laughter ]
I know -- let me tell you some things about Bob Jones University. It started in 1927 by a segregationist named Bob Jones. It prohibits interracial dating, drinking, kissing, rock music, movies, hand-holding and smoking in South Carolina.
Michael: Smoking in South Carolina.
Bill: You can smoke during labor in South Carolina.
[ Laughter ]
You can only go on a date if it's in a monitored-dating parlor.
Michael: Right.
Bill: Women have to wear ankle-length skirts. Couples can't leave campus unchaperoned. Billy Graham, I'm not kidding, dropped out after one semester.
[ Laughter ]
Michael: He had heard it was a party school.
Bill: It is a party school, as you can see. The girls of Bob Jones will be in the next "Playboy" pictorial. But -- okay. We know that about Bob Jones, that's the Baptist. But Al Gore, the other day, visited New Square, New York, which is 7,000 ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jews, who -- there's not one black there. They separate men and women. And I just want to know, why do the Baptists -- not that I'm defending them, but why do they come under this kind of fire, but nobody says a word about Al Gore at New Square, New York?
Lisa: Because the Hasidim community, their practice is of women and men being separate in their religious faiths. That is practiced internally. What's happening at Bob Jones is they are casting aspersions on different religions, on different races. I'm a practicing Catholic who's in an interracial marriage. I mean, I'm on the hit list out there probably. But the fact of the matter is, you know, they're saying, "You can't do that." I don't -- there's nothing in the Bible that tells me that people cannot date of different races, that --
Bill: Oh, Bible thumpers say there is.
Michael: Yeah. Well, you know what, if you look --
Lisa: Well, it's not in the Bible I read.
Michael: If you look in any copy of the Bible, you can see, and I'm not making this up, you can see you're not supposed to go to temple if your testicles have been damaged.
Bill: Well.
Michael: It is in there, guys. You can find anything you really want, even if it's an excuse not to go to temple. I'm sorry.
Lisa: But the point -- I mean, the point is --
Michael: I know what you're saying, though.
Lisa: What they're doing is totally different. The hasidim -- they're not -- they're not forcing their religion on other people. They're not --
Bill: Wait a second.
Michael: Here's the real difference. Here's the real difference. Bob Jones university was established 67 -- whatever.
Bill: '27 -- 1927.
Michael: 75 --
Bill: By Bob Jones.
Michael: Yeah, exactly.
[ Laughter ]
That was -- it was established in the United States of America.
Bill: Yeah.
Michael: Okay. So we're not talking about ancient history here. We're not talking about tradition that goes back and back. We're not even talking about, you know, this isn't even basic Baptists. This is a focus -- this has been refocused by Bob Jones personnel.
Bill: But --
Darlene: But he wasn't there to talk about that anyway. I mean, he wasn't there to say, "You guys are doing the right thing behind closed doors or behind university doors," or "You're doing the wrong thing." He was there to win votes.
Bill: I don't see the difference. Bob Jones University is a 200-acre enclave where people are practicing this sort of thing. They're not asking the world to come to them, nor are they going to the world. And the same thing with New Square, New York. It's just that politicians come to them to get a certain sort of political cache from appearing there. I don't see how it's different.
Lisa: It's totally though.
Bill: I mean, why? This New Square, New York, is a theocratic fiefdom. Rabbis can expel people who disobey.
Michael: Yeah.
Lisa: But there is a religious practice, and the fact is, we're in the United States of America, and we have a right to practice the religion that we feel most comfortable in, and if that's their choice --
Bill: Right.
Karri: But I agree with you.
Bill: That's not the question. That's not the question I'm asking.
Lisa: Bob Jones University is saying we're not going out to try to make people not do --
Bill: The question I'm asking is --
Lisa: -- What they think is right.
Bill: -- One politician goes to one of these places from the 18th century and gets tarred for it, why does the other politician not, who goes to a place that's also not quite being dragged into the 21st century?
Michael: I think each politician in this case is going to -- are preaching to the converted. They're going -- I mean, the fact that it was Bush who went to Bob Jones, and that it was Gore who went to the Hasidim in New York, that's just, you know, you're going to -- you're eating knishes if you want that vote. It's just -- it's all -- that's the way Democrats behave, and that's the way the Republicans behave, really.
Karri: I mean, politics -- they're doing both, and I think that's the bottom line, like, big deal. You went there. Like I said, to say, "I'm a big fan of Bob Jones" or, yeah, Bob Jones.
Lisa: Well, I don't think that's Bill's point. I don't think they're there's a difference between the two institutions and, quite frankly, if George Bush did go there to speak, clearly, possibly he does support what they say, so I don't think that he needed to come out and defend himself and say, "I don't." Well, clearly he does, obviously. And my question is, did Gore actually speak to the women of the Hasidic community and pander their vote, as well, which would have been the proper thing to do, one would think and the smart thing to do. But I don't think there's a difference. There is a difference between what's right and wrong possibly in terms of what institution practices what.
Bill: Yeah.
Lisa: Yes, but is there a difference between one politician going to one institution and another? I don't think there is at all.
Bill: And why do people, when they check into a motel, use the name Bob Jones?
[ Laughter ]
Darlene: That's a good one.
Bill: We have to take a little break. Well said, young lady.
[ Applause ]
[ Applause ]
Bill: Okay. Well, you know, it is that primary season and there's a lot of propositions on the ballot in different states and, of course, the Ten Commandments always comes up when folks on the religious right see that there is an opportunity for people to vote this in. Of course, it's unconstitutional but that hasn't stopped a number of states. In Georgia, they want to withhold funding for schools who don't post the Ten Commandments.
Michael: Wow!
Bill: So kids can actually go to hell in a handbag.
[ Laughter ]
Michael: What if they just wanted to put five up? Would they cut the funding in half?
[ Laughter ]
Wow!
Darlene: You know, why are -- why are you charging it only with the religious -- or are you making an accusation it's the religious right? I mean, is there some harm in displaying something that are the basis of our laws, that comes from?
Bill: Yes, of course. And you know what the harm is.
Lisa: No, there is no harm. I mean, we have an establishment clause which prohibits the government from instituting a religion. By posting the Ten Commandments, all you're doing is saying, "Well, gee, yeah, I agree that it's wrong to kill and it's wrong to steal and you should mind your parents."
Bill: Wait a second. You know what -- you always mention the commandments that are not religious that everybody agrees on. "We shouldn't kill," which, by the way, is the only problem anyway and the only one they interview kids, that's the only one they actually know is "Don't kill."
[ Laughter ]
You don't mention that four of them are religious. Four of them are very religious.
Darlene: But no one is forcing people to --
Michael: Exactly.
Bill: Well, then why don't you post my religious commandments?
Darlene: I think you should.
Bill: I'm a devotee of Spinal Tap.
[ Laughter ]
Darlene: No.
[ Applause ]
Lisa: I'm happy for you.
Bill: Thank you.
Karri: Solve the problem. Solve the problem altogether. If you -- if you are religion "A," post your beliefs.
Lisa: But, that's ridiculous.
Karri: If you're religion "B," post your beliefs.
Lisa: That's why we have -- in the state because you can't do that. I mean --
Karri: You really could.
Darlene: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
[ Applause ]
Lisa: And as a teen in high school or junior high, I didn't read anything that was on the wall anyway.
[ Laughter ]
I never looked --
Michael: Is that why you missed all that pep club meetings?
Bill: Yeah.
Karri: You know.
Darlene: There is no -- there is no faith out there that doesn't believe in those things and I don't see --
Bill: What do you mean there is no faith? What about someone who has an atheistic view?
Darlene: They still believe that you shouldn't kill and you should --
Bill: But that's not the ten commandments, my dear. They say there is only one God. What about people who are polytheistic?
Darlene: What harm -- you can't --
Bill: What harm?
Darlene: You can't tell me what harm there is in putting them up. All you're --
Bill: What if we put up something that you didn't believe in, that you had to pass every day?
Darlene: Then I'd have a right not to look at it, don't I?
Bill: Oh, so the people who don't think the way you do have to turn their heads? That's what you're advocating.
Michael: I look at the motive, though. I really think that so much -- so much political action on that level, on like a school board level, is cosmetic. It's saying, "Look how good we are. We're not going to have a Columbine here because look what we have on the wall." And I don't know whether that really prevents Columbines or not, but I just think, if you do something cosmetically, then you're not doing it to be religious or righteous or anything else. You're doing it to show how, you know --
Lisa: I think it's actually more than cosmetic and very dangerous.
Bill: Yeah.
Lisa: In home room, for example, you weren't allowed to talk because you had to do homework. Well, fine, do your little prayer right then, and say it quietly to yourself and if, you know -- but to bring it in, to plaster it on the wall to make it mandatory, you can't do that. It's actually offensive. It's offensive to people who don't believe in it and it's a separation of church and state is exactly why we have that.
Darlene: But no one is being forced -- I mean, the point is --
Lisa: But if it's posted --
Bill: Okay, so let's post the Koran. How would you feel about that?
Michael: Too long. It's too long.
[ Laughter ]
It's a long, long thing.
Darlene: But, no, you can't. It doesn't mean that every student has to abide by that faith.
Bill: Then why can't we post that? Right?
Karri: I think you can. I really think that if you have a list as a certain religion, if you have a list of things that are important to you, put it up. There are hundreds of yards of hallways in hundreds of schools that are blank. Fill them up with what you believe.
Bill: Why don't we leave them --
Karri: It's okay.
Bill: But it's a school.
Michael: Yeah. It's turning hallways into something else.
Lisa: It's where most of our children spend a great deal of their day each and every day.
Bill: But only -- it is only a place where people could go, say, on Sundays.
Darlene: Hello.
[ Laughter ]
[ Applause ]
Bill: Where it is appropriate.
Karri: Yeah. But you know what it does? I think it also, like we are doing here, it causes active debate. If I read something and said, "I don't believe in that, I think that's --"
Lisa: There's too many things to talk about in class in this particular debate. I money, if you want to have a class about it --
Michael: Yeah, it's not like we're going talk or discuss the Ten Commandments and make a few changes. It's literally written in stone in the state, you know. And it's kind of like -- you know, I think it's a wonderful thing, but it's something that --
Lisa: Listen, I went to elementary school and we had to say "The Pledge of Allegiance." I stood and chose not to speak. I mean --
Michael: I was going to school -- I'm old enough to have gone to school when they had school prayers and they yanked them and I was in fifth grade and the woman -- my teacher spent ten minutes every day talking about how they should have the prayer back. So I got bored an extra ten minutes because they took the prayer out.
Darlene: You just made my point. You said that you didn't say the pledge when the rest of your peers did.
Michael: Uh-huh.
Darlene: So what's the difference between you not paying attention to the ten commandments on the wall when other people might want to respect them?
[ Applause ]
Lisa: No, that's not the same thing. That's not the same thing.
Darlene: Yes, it is the same.
Bill: What part of legislating your case don't you get?
[ Applause ]
Michael: Yeah.
Darlene: It's not legislating my case.
Bill: Of course it is.
Karri: Then take away hundreds of years of tradition. Why do we have to go scrub everything clean so it is so politically correct that we're bored to tears?
Bill: You think this is about political correctness?
Karri: Yeah, it is.
Bill: Why didn't you say "The Pledge of Allegiance"?
Lisa: Specifically as an African-American I didn't and growing up in an all-white school and going to school with all white children, I was called "nigger" every day, this was not my country and this was not my pledge of allegiance to be said. So similarly to the issue of religion -- just as I chose not to say "The Pledge of Allegiance," had nothing to do with religion, and although there is God in there, isn't there, somewhere?
Bill: If you were bright enough to understand that.
[ Laughter ]
Oh, sorry, you are.
Darlene: And Catholic, too. Don't forget that.
Michael: I think they should have Casey Kasem do the Ten Commandments every day.
[ Laughter ]
Start with ten if you want and go down to one -- just over the loudspeaker.
[ Applause ]
You don't like to hear it, just go like this.
Bill: I have to take another commercial. We'll be right back.
[ Applause ]
Announcer: Join us tomorrow when our guests will be syndicate columnist Arianna Huffington, actress Roma Downey and President of the ACLU, Nadine Strossen.
[ Applause ]
Bill: Okay. We're talking about religion and you mentioned you're Catholic, as I was raised Catholic, myself. I'll never forget it. Anybody else here a Catholic?
Michael: I married a Catholic.
Bill: You married a Catholic.
Michael: Yeah.
Karri: I know a Catholic.
Bill: That's close.
[ Laughter ]
Michael: Did you ever bash one?
Bill: Well, yeah. This is an issue -- isn't it amazing that this is an issue in this election? When was the last time you ever heard of a Catholic being bashed? Are these politicians -- do they create the most incredible nonsense? Okay.
Michael: No, they look for sensitive spots, you know, and they pretend to cover -- they pretend to care about them.
Bill: But when was the last time someone called you a papist? I mean, really, is this really going on nowadays? Have you been --
Darlene: This has been an incredible year. I mean, you know, I don't wear my religion on my sleeve at all. I mean, I'm proud of my religion, but to have to hear constantly, this always negativity about Catholicism --
Bill: It's silly. Because nobody cares.
Michael: In what vein, though? I mean, I haven't heard a ton of --
Darlene: Well, the whole thing is kind of sort of going uphill with Bob Jones.
Bill: Right. But what McCain and Bush are arguing now -- about now is that they're --
Darlene: Right, it's the hostility between the people running for office and --
Bill: But here's the real -- but there's a real -- let me get to this. There's a real Catholic issue out there, because, you know, there's a lot of Catholic hospitals that are the soul providers in their community for care. And they will not provide emergency contraception, which usually involves a woman coming in after a rape, because they're Catholic hospitals and there's 586 Catholic hospitals in the U.S. And I say, a lot of them are the only providers. And it just seems like they're not doing their job.
Darlene: No, no, no, no. They're not allowed -- no.
Bill: It's -- a hospital is a private institution.
Michael: Yes.
Darlene: What they are doing -- they are not -- they are not servicing people for elective abortions and for tubal ligations, however, they're still caring for the community.
[ Talking over each other ]
Bill: They won't give you the morning-after pill. Because you know the Catholics. They're against --
Darlene: Well, it's not part of their religion.
Bill: -- Anything that stops bringing more Catholics into the world.
[ Laughter ]
Lisa: But what happened, though -- exactly.
Michael: If you're rapist, then you go to the nearest hospital --
Lisa: Exactly. And that's the problem. If, in fact, this hospital is the openly institution that services this community and I'm a young woman that's just gotten raped and I go to this hospital, the next hospital is 50 miles away, I'm being punished because --
Karri: But, I mean, an abortion is not an emergency thing that has to happen right now. That's something that if I don't believe in --
Michael: In this particular case, you're right. I think you can buy a train ticket, you know, and go 50 miles.
Lisa: In an emergency situation, though.
Bill: Right.
Karri: If you were to need an emergency abortion or an emergency pill -- morning --
Lisa: Don't tell me I don't need an emergency abortion. If I need one, I need one and if I -- get one.
Darlene: Wouldn't be any different --
Lisa: Yeah, but the whole point is they're serving the community with the rare exception of these procedures, so that --
Bill: Well, that's nice to say unless you're the rare person who needs one.
Darlene: Exactly.
Bill: I mean --
Karri: Seriously, in what case would you really need an emergency abortion, like has to happen the next day?
Darlene: Okay.
Bill: If you got raped the night before.
Lisa: Okay. Let's forget about an emergency. The point is the issue of a community -- an individual who needs service at a hospital. If the nearest hospital, I can't go in -- you know, I can't travel the 50 miles, let's say, or I can't travel the 100 miles.
Bill: It's really often more than 50.
Lisa: Well, exactly. I mean, I can't --
Bill: No, it is. I mean, when they say the only provider in the community, they're talking about a great distance. I mean, there's not too many places that --
Karri: Were raped, pregnancy, it takes a little bit of time to determine if you're pregnant in the first place.
Bill: But maybe the girl doesn't want to get pregnant.
Lisa: I mean, really, get over the issue of rape. I mean, you know, I want a freakin' abortion. This is a hospital. That's the kind of procedure that hospitals give. I can't imagine not being able to go to a hospital and not get any procedure done.
Darlene: Well, if it's a Catholic hospital and they don't do that practice, you find another hospital.
Lisa: And then God bless America. That's amazing. That's just phenomenal.
Darlene: You know, that's something that someone in making an election to do. If it's an emergency, if there's surgery that has to be done, they're not turning people away from their doors. They're saying, "We will not perform abortions --"
Lisa: But it's a moral -- it's a moral issue.
Darlene: It's part of the Catholic religion.
Bill: Isn't hospitals first about medicine? Do people walk in there and go, "Is there a doctrine in the house?"
Lisa: They are --
[ Applause ]
-- Practicing medicine with the rare exception of those procedures.
Karri: But you know what --
Darlene: And there are -- as a matter of fact, what you neglected to mention, as there are a few of those Catholic hospitals that do provide some forms of contraceptives.
Bill: Well, let's encourage them. All right. I got to take a break. We'll be right back.
[ Applause ]
[ Applause ]
Bill: This was a good show. I admire this panel. Tomorrow we have some girls, Arianna Huffington, Nora Dunn, Nadine Strossen. They're all girls. It's an all-girl show.
[ Cheers and applause ]